165: From “Not Yet” to “Now”: Ben Erwin on Turning Rejection Into Reinvention

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In this episode of Add Up
Learning and Development, Ben

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Irwin takes us on an honest and
relatable journey from life as a

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writing instructor to thriving
as an instructional designer at

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Purdue University.
This conversation is full of

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wisdom for anyone considering a
career pivot.

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Ben opens up about the reality
of burnout in education, how he

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found clarity in the chaos, and
why LinkedIn became a game

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changer in his professional
growth.

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We also dive into the power of
community, the importance of

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knowing your value, and what it
really takes to break into the

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field of instructional design
today.

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Whether you're feeling stuck
searching for your next step, or

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just want to hear from someone
who's been there and made it

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through this, this episode will
leave you feeling seen and ready

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to take action.
Let's jump in.

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Hello everyone and welcome to

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another amazing episode of Add
Up Learning and Development.

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My name is Holly Owens and I'm
your host.

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And today we have a fabulous
guest.

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We have Ben Irwin, who is an
instructional designer of Purdue

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University.
Amongst other things, he is a

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job curator, Finder, sharing
extraordinaire.

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So, Ben, welcome to the show.
Hello thank you I I will try my

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best to match your energy.
I know I just love talking to

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people, so it really does like
release a lot of endorphins.

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For me.
It's like exercising.

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I get really excited, especially
talking to people that I know

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fairly well, like yourself,
because I know this is this

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episode's going to be really,
really great.

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So I'm I'm so glad you joined
me.

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Well happy, happy to be here and
to chat.

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Well, let's start at the
beginning.

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You know, I know a little bit
about your personal journey

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because we've talked, but you
know what kind of led you here

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to where you're at?
You've grown substantially on

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LinkedIn, like over 50,000
followers now you know, You know

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what does the path behind that
look like?

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Yeah, celebrate.
That is awesome.

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That is amazing.
I use this vanity metrics.

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Yeah, yeah.
Right.

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But it's, it talks about how
people trust you and how they

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value your content.
So I think that's really

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important to to celebrate that
for sure.

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Yeah.
So tell us, tell us about your

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journey, Ben.
So, so to try to truncate this,

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I'm currently an instructional
designer.

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I've been working at Purdue for
the last two years.

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Prior to that, I was a writing
instructor and writing center

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director at a large northeastern
university for for 12 years.

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So I did that for for more than
a decade and and prior to that I

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worked for a number of years in
the early 2000s as a journalist

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in very various capacities.
So I was everything from.

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So you're a great writer.
That's why people follow your

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LinkedIn.
Like, yeah, everything that I do

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starts with with writing and and
that's, you know, the reason

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that I don't appear on lots of
shows like this is that I'm a

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much better writer than talker.
I'm glad you made an exception.

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But so, so I've, I've actually
had a number of, of different

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careers and kind of all of that
to me is, is really linked in

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terms of, you know, when, when I
was working at daily newspapers,

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it, it only took a few years to
realize I, I loved journalism,

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but I hated journalists.
And what I really enjoyed was

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working with writers.
And I'd sort of thought back to

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my time as an undergrad working
in, in my university's writing

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center and thinking, oh, like,
that's someone's job.

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I could do that for a living.
I could spend more of my time

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working one-on-one with writers,
which which is how I, you know,

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got into, into writing center
work and into teaching.

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And, and again, you know, at at
a certain point in my career,

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realizing there wasn't the
opportunity and the upward

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mobility that I wanted in terms
of my own growth and my own

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learning.
Isn't that tough?

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That's so tough to like, like,
oh, I love this.

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But there's, you know, like it's
kind of the end of the path

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here.
And you know, I'll, I'll be

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honest, like there, there were a
lot of things about directing a

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writing center that really
facilitated my, my burnout and

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an eventual career transition.
But I do also sometimes think

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like, oh, if these other
elements had been better, right,

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I, I might still be doing that.
But you know, I, I really love

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instructional design and, and
I'm really, you know, have, have

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enjoyed that transition because
it's, to me, it's fun and

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rewarding in so many of the same
ways that teaching was.

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But I also then get to flex
these other creative muscles

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that outside of the my own
courses that I taught

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frequently, kind of went unused.
Yeah.

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Oh, I love that.
And it's so interesting because

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I've interviewed so many people
on the show.

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Like, people don't realize that
we don't come from necessarily

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education backgrounds.
And you're gonna hear my puppy

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has joined us this morning and
he has a squeaky toy.

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So for those of you who are
hearing that in the background,

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I'll try to edit that out.
But it's just it's part of life.

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That's what it is.
And we've started different

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spots, you know, where I, you
know, I come from education K to

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12, but I did some other things
before I popped into

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instructional design.
I think it's just so interesting

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that like instructional design
has so many places you can go

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with these transferable skills
that you have, no matter what

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career path you're on.
It's really interesting to me to

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to to discover that as I'm
having more and more of these

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conversations.
Yeah.

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And you know, the team that I
work on now, there are a few

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folks who have, you know,
degrees and advanced degrees and

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instructional design.
But one of the things that I

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really appreciate about the
field is that you've got folks

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coming from all over the place
with different backgrounds,

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different experiences.
And you know, I'm, I'm working

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within kind of academic
instructional design.

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But even across the field, if
you look at corporate and

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nonprofit and all of these
variations on, you know, ID

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work, you do really, I think see
the the opportunity that the

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field presents, even if you come
from like less traditional paths

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or a little bit.
Like we welcome everybody here.

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We honestly do.
Like we welcome everybody.

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Yeah, right.
You'll, you'll see folks from,

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from Ed on the same team as
folks from corporate and you

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know, folks from all these
different industries and

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different spheres and
backgrounds, but still kind of

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being united by the skill set of
how do I craft effective

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learning environments for
different audiences to achieve

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specified outcomes, right?
For sure.

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I think when I worked at Amazon,
50% of my team were came from

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the classroom like the K to 12th
classroom, but the other 50%

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came from like you're saying,
various aspects of the industry.

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So that's good segue into my
next question because you've

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been doing a lot of job
postings.

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So many of the people that
listen to the show I know are

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looking to shift in to a career
in learning and development.

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So as far as your own journey is
concerned, what's like a pivotal

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moment or decision that you made
that kind of just changed

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everything for you?
Like you're like, I know I'm

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going to go into instructional
design and this is what I'm

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going to do.
So there was a few factors,

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yeah, that that created this
like Confluence for change.

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Part of it was that I was
getting burnt out in in my past

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role and just kind of overseeing
a staff of 40 plus people

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feeling as though I was kind of
on call 24/7.

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Yeah.
That's a lot.

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Like, and having to to teach and
work with faculty across campus

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and lead dozens of workshops
every semester.

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It was, you know, my my list of
tasks sort of slowly grew every

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year for more than a decade
that.

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Is not sustainable.
That is not sustainable.

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Yeah, right.
And, and made even worse when

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you know, you're sort of being
told, or at least in my case, I

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was told, oh, hey, we'll, we'll
get you this help or we'll do XY

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and Z.
And none of that ever

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materialized.
I think in part because, you

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know, you're, you're able to
hold the ship together right

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through the expertise of my
staff and, and folks within my

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department.
But but that that relationship

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was becoming more tenuous, which
was also exacerbated by COVID.

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Yeah.
For sure.

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So like for for me, COVID was a
real sea change in how do we

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look at employment and a big
part of that being the

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proliferation of remote work as
as much as like I taught online

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and I tutored online and done a
lot of synchronous online work.

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Hadn't really thought up until
that point, oh, I could make

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this a reality.
I could work from the literal

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comforts of my homework faster,
work more efficient, be more

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productive and, you know, not,
not have to be in an office

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every day.
Yeah.

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Be the stress of commuting or
just like it's so interesting to

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me that people do go back to the
office and I know some people

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need that kind of stimulation to
have Co workers around and

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things like that.
But for me it would be like

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there would be tons of
distractions.

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I mean, there's enough to deal
with at home, but in the office

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there was just I go, I got to
commute.

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What's the traffic like?
You know, what time do I have to

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be in the office?
Am I going to be late?

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Am I going to be, you know, like
who do I need to talk to?

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Like it just, it was a whole
different situation.

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I yeah.
And I, I guess to me also a

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caveat that I will be
transparent about is, you know,

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my wife and I don't have
children.

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We live in a home, you know,
live in a home that has enough

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space for us both to, you know,
work separately, but in in the

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same home every day.
If we had kids or if we were

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living in a one bedroom
apartment, I'd get out.

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Number one, you'd want to get
out number.

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Two, I write like I, I would
probably be singing a, a

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different tune, but very
privileged to, to have the space

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to make, you know, remote work
really effective and really

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seamless.
So, so to me, those, those two

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factors, right where I was at in
my career, coupled with COVID

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and changes in education and
academia, all kind of

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contributing to the, the initial
impetus to, to find something

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else.
And when I started looking, I

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didn't know that that ID was
going to be the path.

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I I did a lot of research and
networking in a whole lot of

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other areas before I really kind
of narrowed down.

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Here's here's what the best
alignment for my skill set and

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experience would be.
I think that's great advice too,

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because people, they will come,
they probably come to you for

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advice and they come definitely
come to me for advice.

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And they say, well, where do I
start?

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And I'm like, well, where do you
want to be?

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And you did that.
You did the research, you

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figured out where you wanted to
be what, what was going to work

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for you, what didn't work for
you.

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I think people think like, OK, I
created this goal.

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I want to go into instructional
design, but they're not thinking

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about how vast that field is.
Absolutely.

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I and that was my problem too,
right?

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I had a very specific idea, you
know, prior to doing any real

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research, I had a very specific
idea about what instructional

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design was.
And it was one of the reasons

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that I hadn't really considered
it.

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And, and again, my, my own
ignorance kind of holding me

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back.
And once I started networking on

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LinkedIn, once I started kind of
doing more research on my own

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and really analyzing and
breaking down job posts and, and

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seeing, oh, there, there are
different iterations of this

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job.
There are so many variations of

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this work.
How can I find a role that that

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is going to be a good fit for
me?

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Right?
So that that's another piece of

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advice that I always offer folks
is your job search will take

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00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,480
significantly longer than you
think.

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Yeah, I think lots of people
learn that.

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They think that it's not like a
corporate job where you're like

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a sales representative or like a
Stockbrook or something.

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You can just transition, you
know, even those have little

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caveats to it, but it's
something that you really have

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to find where where you belong.
I should have never bought that

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00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:19,440
toy.
I, I want to go back to

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something you said about the
burnout because one of the

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00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,880
questions I like to ask is like,
what's something people don't

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00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,680
talk about enough in this field
that you've had to navigate

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00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,920
behind the scenes?
And I think this applies to all

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00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,160
roles.
And it's burnout.

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It's the constant pressure of
feeling like you always need to

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00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,920
be on.
You're the person that people

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00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,600
turn to to answer the questions
quickly, especially if you're in

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that leadership role, just
navigating all the projects,

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00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,120
being the face of the of the
department when you are in the

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leadership role.
So as far as burnout is

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00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,760
concerned, how do you feel that
shifted from when you were the

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00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,960
directing the writing center to
now you're in this instructional

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00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,440
design role?
I'm going to grossly

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oversimplify, but it's, it's
night and day.

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00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:15,240
I'll, I'll be honest, you know,
in my director role, as I said,

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kind of the, that position was
growing every year and we had,

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00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,400
or I should say the university
had these kind of KPIs for

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growth and contact hours.
And you know, what are we doing

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00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,040
and how are we doing it and how
can we make it more efficient

264
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,280
and how can we spend less money
and use fewer man hours to get

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more?
Do more with less, yeah.

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Yes, right.
And like, I had the data to

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know, hey, short of dining
services, we see more students

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00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,680
across campus than any other
service at the university.

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Like we are seeing thousands of
students.

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We had, you know, north of 7000
contact hours every accident

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00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,440
here.
Like it, it was a sizable

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00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:09,760
operation and the and as much as
like I said, I was fortunate to

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have a really great staff, but
never had assistant directors,

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00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:18,480
never really had infrastructure
in place and part of that was my

275
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,920
fault as well.
I think my tendency to just take

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00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,119
everything on and just yeah.
We gotta not do that, Ben.

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00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,160
That's bad for us.
Right.

278
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:34,240
But part of me was like, oh, I
can make anything work.

279
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,600
Yeah, for sure.
But then you realize how

280
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,960
intricate the project is.
You know, like, oh, this looks

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00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:44,360
so simple from the outside.
Yes, right.

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00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:48,960
So, so as I said, it was, it was
high stress, high demand.

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00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,920
So much of that job, by the time
that I left, was essentially

284
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:59,520
solving, you know, 40 people's
problems every.

285
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,360
We can imagine how.
Many emails you got or slack

286
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:03,920
messages.
Jesus.

287
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,040
Yeah.
So in in an average day in that

288
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:15,560
role, I would get 60 to 70
emails, about 90% of which would

289
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,280
require a direct response
because I was running all of the

290
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,360
comms, all of the social media.
I was the point.

291
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,200
Person.
For like software training for

292
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:30,240
students, so, so many random
tasks, right.

293
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:35,400
So that that was a very in terms
of weekly hours was very

294
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,080
intense.
And one of the things that I

295
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,840
very much appreciate about my
current role is, you know, I'm

296
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,520
fortunate to be in a department
and on a team where, you know, I

297
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:51,080
have supervisors who say, like,
we here are the hours that we

298
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,520
work.
You should not be working, you

299
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,120
know, mornings, nights,
weekends, right there.

300
00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:00,960
There might be times when
because of projects and

301
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,920
deadlines, that happens.
That's just the nature of the

302
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,360
work.
But, you know, having folks

303
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:11,840
above me very actively say, hey,
if you find yourself having to

304
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,720
work nights and weekends all the
time, that's a problem.

305
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,120
And it's not a you problem.
It's a workload problem.

306
00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:22,800
Like that's something that we
then need to talk about and

307
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,040
address.
And it's not this negative

308
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,400
reflection on you or your
abilities or your work ethic.

309
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,840
It's that, hey, maybe you have
too much work.

310
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,920
Yeah, you know, that's a great,
that's great leadership if I'm

311
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,200
being honest to to recognize
those things and be able to set

312
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,520
those healthy boundaries.
I think I read a study recently

313
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,520
about like the four day work
week and how productivity

314
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,880
increased like 80% with the 44
day work week.

315
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,160
And especially in our culture,
it's so ingrained to us.

316
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,360
The more you work, the the more
productive you are.

317
00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:00,680
When I absolutely just knowing
myself and and being in other

318
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,320
roles, I think it's the opposite
because you get to a certain

319
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,360
point where your brain's just
not, it's, it can't focus

320
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:09,760
anymore.
It's just like like burnout and

321
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,920
stuff like that.
So that I am so happy to hear

322
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:14,960
that you have that sort of
leadership on your team.

323
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,880
And I think it really does help
people kind of feel like they.

324
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:22,440
Are able to step away from the
job because the job is not your

325
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,160
life.
You do other things right, Ben.

326
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,240
And I think that's a problem
that I've felt and that I think

327
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:37,080
a lot of educators feel right.
You're so much of your identity

328
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:42,560
is wrapped up in here's what I
do for a living or, or thinking

329
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,160
about myself.
It it was the sense of here are

330
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,920
all the courses I teach.
Here are the students that I'm

331
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,440
helping in the writing center.
Like you're proving yourself.

332
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,400
You're showing your credentials
like all the time.

333
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,200
Right, yeah, right.
And that becomes this weird

334
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:03,280
kernel of your identity.
And and then if, if that

335
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:09,120
suddenly goes away for for any
reason, then thinking like, oh,

336
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:13,920
what, what am I now?
If I'm not these other things

337
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,520
that I was, what, what am I in
this new role?

338
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,640
And I think that that I think.
This definitely resonates with a

339
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,440
lot of people who are listening
right now.

340
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,520
And, and like I, I'm going to
say I'm one of them.

341
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:33,600
Like what I do is who I am, so
if something were to I

342
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,160
definitely have a breakdown of
some sort.

343
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,800
Well, I think we, we also don't
talk nearly enough about, you

344
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,640
know, there's a reason that when
you like, go to a party or

345
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,280
something, people ask, what do
you do for a living?

346
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,480
And it's the worst, often times
most boring question to ask a

347
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,120
human being.
Plus just.

348
00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:58,560
Can't explain it.
We can't explain it, and we

349
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,720
can't explain our jobs in a way
people understand.

350
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,000
They don't know what
instructional designers do

351
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,520
anyways.
So that adds a whole extra layer

352
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,920
of stress on the, you know,
trying to explain and and share

353
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,400
what we do.
Yeah, yeah.

354
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,400
I think people, if you say, oh,
hey, I teach whatever the level

355
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,880
is, they they get that if you
say, well, I work with subject

356
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:26,000
matter experts to bring their
vision to life to craft more

357
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,960
efficient, effective learning
environments for X audience.

358
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,400
OK, well, what does that mean?
Yeah, exactly.

359
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,360
That's the next question.
Well, what does that mean?

360
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:40,640
Oh yeah, I'm several of these
topics.

361
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,040
We could probably go off and
tanges on it, but I want to save

362
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,720
those for some future episodes
and maybe for some future

363
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,760
LinkedIn lives.
One of the things I do want to

364
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,240
ask you, and I'm kind of curious
about this too, is if someone

365
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,400
were to shadow you for a day,
what's something that would

366
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,880
surprise them about what you do
in a day or how you work?

367
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,560
Yeah, different.
Like something, something fun or

368
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,320
something like interesting.
Like I do this to stay

369
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,200
productive or I do this during
the day.

370
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,280
Like, I don't know.
I'm interested to know because

371
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,120
you're such a creative person.
Yeah, that I, I wouldn't go that

372
00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:16,440
far.
Let's see things we can't take

373
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,920
back.
I'm, I'm definitely a morning

374
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,920
person, especially the, the
older I get, the easier it

375
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:30,080
becomes to wake up at, you know,
5:45 than it is to stay up until

376
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:35,600
2:00 in the morning.
So I'm usually up for at least

377
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,880
an hour or two before my wife
gets up.

378
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:41,560
So to me that is like prime
working hours.

379
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,280
No one.
No one is emailing, no one is

380
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:49,640
interrupting me.
I can just turn on music and and

381
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:54,440
and get to work for the day.
I usually will make A to do list

382
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,920
at the end of every day or every
evening for the next day so that

383
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:04,680
as soon as I'm up and capable of
thinking enough to get something

384
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,800
done I can just jump into work
and start checking things off A

385
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,240
to do list.
I also live and buy, live and

386
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,000
die.
Buy to do lists my.

387
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,240
We're similar that very much the
same that way.

388
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,240
Like and part of it is very
self-serving in that I love

389
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,640
checking something off of a list
I love.

390
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,240
Psychology proves it's a thing.
It's motivation, whether

391
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,760
extransic, intransic, like,
whatever it's it's a thing, yes.

392
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,200
And, and I at my core, I'm just
a big dumb animal.

393
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:42,920
I want that, that serotonin hit
of, of, oh, I accomplished a

394
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,280
task, right.
So I don't know what might

395
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:55,520
surprise people other than, you
know, I, I try to have, have a

396
00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:00,280
very clear structure to my day.
A lot of my time is spent in

397
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,040
meetings.
So, so that both both

398
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,480
complicates things and gives the
structure right.

399
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,440
So I'll, and, and I'll try to
plan my week knowing all right,

400
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:16,240
here are my standing meetings.
So these other days have to be

401
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,440
the real buckle down, get stuff
done, make sure you're, you're

402
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:25,840
ahead of deadlines, etcetera.
You know, but I, I think like,

403
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,280
like most remote workers, my
biggest struggle might be the

404
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,200
fact that everything in my house
is vying for my attention.

405
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,560
And so many things in my house
are potentially more enticing

406
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:45,520
than than getting work done.
But I, I think I've become

407
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,560
pretty good at, at, like I said,
blocking out time and making

408
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:55,480
sure that, that I give myself
enough time to, to get certain

409
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,280
things done like that.
That was something I really

410
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,000
struggled with in the beginning
was not knowing how long certain

411
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,000
tasks would take and budgeting
my time effectively.

412
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,160
But, but now I think I have a
much better sense of, OK, here's

413
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,040
here's where I need to block out
my calendar.

414
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,960
Here's where I need, you know, 0
distractions.

415
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:21,640
As much as I am prone to like
working in our living room there

416
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,760
there are certain tasks where I
know, OK, I need to be in the

417
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,080
office.
I need 100% or especially I need

418
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,600
uninterrupted time because some
of you know, some of the work is

419
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,600
so meticulous if I get
interrupted in the middle of

420
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:38,240
something.
Oh.

421
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,480
It takes forever to get back on
focus.

422
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,960
It just.
Yeah, I feel you.

423
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,760
I have.
I was just talking to my

424
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,480
boyfriend about this last night.
I was like, I have generalized

425
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:56,160
anxiety disorder and that the
part where it's like, you know,

426
00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:58,760
getting distracted.
I was like, I that has to do

427
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,960
with ADHDI can it takes me like
I need like these are

428
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,000
soundproof.
I need to have music on.

429
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,000
I need the door to be shut.
I need you to know that it not

430
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,280
come bother me.
I mean, the puppy distracts me

431
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:17,400
enough or the dogs distract me
enough and just focus because I

432
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,040
am so proud.
I use Pomodoro technique to

433
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,360
focus in on the specific tasks
and I only do one thing for 25

434
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:27,280
minutes because you know, like I
love checking those LinkedIn

435
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,840
notifications or I love going
out there and seeing what's out

436
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,520
LinkedIn world.
So I have to turn that that

437
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,160
stuff off.
But yes, I'm a morning person as

438
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,400
well.
I love the quiet time in the

439
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,320
morning.
It's like my time.

440
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:45,480
Yeah, I to me, the get getting
up early offers all of the same

441
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,200
advantages that people talk
about, you know, when they're a

442
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:49,480
night owl.
Yeah.

443
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,000
And I think that the common
denominator is always no

444
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,480
interruptions.
Like that's that's what makes

445
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,680
that time great is no one else
is around.

446
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:05,280
And you, you have, you have kind
of unfettered freedom without

447
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,240
intrusion, which which is
becoming more and more rare as,

448
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,800
as like we're required by
professions to be tethered to

449
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,440
electronic devices all day,
every day.

450
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,680
Absolutely, absolutely.
Well, I want to know from you.

451
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,920
So in closing, you've shared a
lot of great information and for

452
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,960
the listeners out there who are
thinking about they're taking

453
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,200
the leap of the best
transitioning teachers or

454
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,200
they're just trying to
transition their roles, they're

455
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,640
already in L&D.
What 3 pieces of the best advice

456
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,720
you could give for them to hold
on to at this point?

457
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,160
Because you know, a lot of
different people are looking for

458
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,640
jobs and we hear all the stuff
about job saturation, market

459
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,720
saturated.
What 3 pieces of bias could you

460
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,480
give to them?
So first, as I've mentioned,

461
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,840
plan for your transition to take
longer than you think.

462
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,680
You know, I I was studying
options and doing research for

463
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,560
the better part of a year before
I really started to even apply

464
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,760
for things.
And even then it was for me, it

465
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,560
was a slow process of narrowing
things down more and more as as

466
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,880
I was networking, as I was
learning, and quite honestly as

467
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,480
I was failing miserably feeling.
The part of it for sure.

468
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,960
Rejections and failing.
Right.

469
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,040
And, and giving yourself that
time is, was really helpful for

470
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:33,520
me and being able to kind of
recognize that, hey, I'm, I'm

471
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:39,080
going to fail for a while.
You know, I hadn't written ACV

472
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,160
in more than a decade.
Oh yeah.

473
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,640
Right.
And I have, I worked with

474
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,520
students and faculty all the
time on their own application

475
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,680
materials and consider myself
pretty good at it.

476
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,600
But when it came to doing it
myself, I really, I really

477
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:01,280
struggled and I really struggled
to kind of better understand the

478
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,160
new job market and initially
really struggled with

479
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:10,040
quantifying my work in ways that
this new audience would

480
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:16,080
understand and be persuaded by.
So I would say give give

481
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:21,840
yourself more time, recognize
that that failure is probably

482
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,680
going to be a part of that
process.

483
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,400
And I think the key is being
willing to be critically self

484
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,320
reflective enough to learn from
what's not working.

485
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,600
As much as I love the
transitioning teacher community,

486
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:44,360
the the hubris sometimes is kind
of mind boggling to me.

487
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:51,280
Or the the expectations of like,
well I'm I'm going to find a new

488
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,800
job in a month and it's going to
double my salary.

489
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,560
Even if you're like fully
prepared and you know all the

490
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,040
people that know all the people,
that's still not the case.

491
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:04,240
Yeah, like listen, if if that's
your experience, amazing.

492
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:05,760
Good for your.
Anomaly.

493
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,400
That was not my experience at
all.

494
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,840
So that that to me is one piece
of advice.

495
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,080
Second, I'm very biased because
I'm on LinkedIn all the time,

496
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,280
but I legitimately believe in
the potential that LinkedIn

497
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,240
offers in terms of not only
networking but learning.

498
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,560
And I think too many people view
networking or view LinkedIn as

499
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,280
this networking platform and I
view it as a learning platform.

500
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:40,160
Me too.
Like my, unless you're, you're

501
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,680
directly selling something, not
to say audience size doesn't

502
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,960
matter, but we get, we get
caught up, I think in, in things

503
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,800
like how, how many followers do
I have?

504
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,000
How many connections do I have?
And it's really a, you know,

505
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:01,280
quality over quantity scenario.
And, you know, if if you are

506
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,000
looking to learn about a field
that you haven't worked in yet,

507
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,560
LinkedIn is the absolute best
place to do it.

508
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:14,160
There are so many experts who
are kind and generous with their

509
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,320
time and are willing to to
answer questions.

510
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,880
Especially in this community.
Right.

511
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:26,120
Yeah, like, and one of the
reasons that I, I enjoy trying

512
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,040
to post jobs and post what I
hope who will be helpful content

513
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,000
is just the knowledge that like
I've been there, I've made all

514
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,440
of these mistakes.
If something I write or share

515
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,920
can help someone avoid even one
of the mistakes and setbacks

516
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:48,040
that I had, like, that's great.
I think there's there's I also

517
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,520
have a lot of like teacher
energy that's pent up and I'm

518
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,680
like, Oh my, how can I help
someone today?

519
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,360
Like what can I do that's going
to?

520
00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,200
Yeah, that's ingrained in US,
right?

521
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,080
That never goes away.
That never goes away.

522
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,600
Yeah.
So, so use LinkedIn, use it as

523
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,520
as a tool to learn.
And then I guess the last piece

524
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,600
of advice, and this is for
anyone transitioning careers,

525
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:21,720
realize that you are not your
job and that every job is

526
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:26,360
temporary.
I I talk with so many

527
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,640
transitioning educators who
essentially say, hey, I want to

528
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,320
land my dream job.
Oh I just did a poll about Dream

529
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,080
and Job being in the same
sentence.

530
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:45,160
Like the the rhetoric of that I
bristle with real hard, but but

531
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,760
also I think recognizing OK if
you're particularly if you're

532
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,040
shifting industries, what you
want is a foot in the door.

533
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,360
Right.
Like and, and, and recognize

534
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,240
that you might only have that
job for the next year or two

535
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,720
until you accrue the experience
that's going to get you the next

536
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,800
role.
And if you're, if you're stuck

537
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,679
on this idea of, well, I'm going
to finish out my career at this

538
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:16,199
company.
Like good luck even even the

539
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,280
best employee at the best
company.

540
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:20,679
That's just not a thing
nowadays.

541
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:26,760
Yes, and and also if you want to
make more money you need to hop

542
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,000
from job to job.
It is the only way at this point

543
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,280
to legitimately improve your
earning power.

544
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,000
And, and I know four or five
years ago there was a lot of,

545
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,760
you know, bad negative press
about quote UN quote job

546
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,360
hoppers.
But my thought was always, well,

547
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,800
these are bad faith takes being
made by people who aren't

548
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,760
actually in the job market.
Because if if you're getting,

549
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,320
you know, 2% cost of living
increases every year at your

550
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,080
job.
And inflation is 9%.

551
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,640
Yeah, right.
You're losing money every year.

552
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,160
Only way to have a significant
impact on your earning power

553
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:13,040
might be to, you know, short of
a promotion is to shift

554
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,200
companies, to shift roles and,
and to find something.

555
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:23,200
So I, I think that is, is
something folks might get hung

556
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,880
up on is I need the perfect
role.

557
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:31,400
Also, I, you know, I, I was very
fortunate and privileged that I

558
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,160
could make a lateral move in
terms of salary.

559
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,960
And, you know, we can still pay
our bills.

560
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,680
We're fine.
To me, trying to get

561
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:45,600
significantly more money wasn't
nearly as important as I want a

562
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,560
job that isn't grinding me into
the ground and, and negatively

563
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,240
impacting every other aspect of
my life.

564
00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:57,680
So things like being able to
work remotely, being able to

565
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:04,040
work typical hours and not
receive emails and messages 24

566
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,680
hours a day just immediately
have we're not.

567
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,520
Vampires, we don't stay up all
night.

568
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,880
Seriously folks, this is great
advice and I, I really think

569
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,920
people need to understand this
that it's OK to I think money is

570
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,200
a taboo topic in our culture as
well.

571
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,600
Like people just they don't talk
about it now I talk about it.

572
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:31,320
But Ben, thank you so much.
I, I, I know you and I could

573
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,400
talk a lot longer about a lot of
different things, but that just

574
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,280
means you have to come back on
the show again.

575
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,800
So everything that Ben talked
about, you know, we're going to

576
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,440
have information in the show
notes where they find him out on

577
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,560
LinkedIn, the work that he's
doing with job postings.

578
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,040
You need to follow him.
Great resource.

579
00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:52,960
So thank you so much for coming
on and sharing this with our

580
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,480
audience.
Yeah, thank you for letting me

581
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,440
blather on for.
Of course, of course.

582
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,680
I mean, it's great advice.
It really is the job hopping

583
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,800
stuff, talking about the burnout
stuff, you know, just trying to

584
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,280
figure your way through and
everybody needs support.

585
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,680
So thank you so much.
Absolutely.

586
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,880
Hi, we're Ice Spring, an
international team of e-learning

587
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,120
enthusiasts who helped more than
60,000 clients across the globe

588
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,280
succeed with better online
learning.

589
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,840
Our two flagship solutions are
Ice Spring Suite and Ice Spring

590
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,334
Learn LMS Ispring Suite is an
intuitive all in

591
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,520
Go to www.ispringsolutions.com
to learn more about us and

592
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,200
connect.
Thanks for spending a few

593
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,520
minutes with Holly.
She knows your podcast queue is

594
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,160
packed.
If today's episode sparked an

595
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,360
idea or gave you that extra
nudge of confidence, tap, follow

596
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,040
or subscribe in your favorite
app so you never miss an episode

597
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,320
of Ed Up L&D.
Dropping a quick rating or

598
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,800
review helps more educators and
learning pros discover the show,

599
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,760
too.
Want to keep the conversation

600
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,080
going?
Connect with Holly on LinkedIn

601
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:10,600
and share your biggest take
away.

602
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,200
She reads every message.
Until next time, keep learning,

603
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,840
keep leading, and keep believing
in your own story.

604
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:17,800
Talk soon.